In his book, Zombie Politics and Culture in the Age of Casino Capitalism,
author and scholar Henry Giroux connects the dots to prove his theory
that our current system is informed by a “machinery of social and civil
death” that chills “any vestige of a robust democracy.”
Giroux
explains that such a machine produces “people who are basically so
caught up with surviving that they become like the walking dead—they
lose their sense of agency, they lose their homes, they lose their
jobs.”
What’s more, Giroux points out, the system that creates
this vacuum has little to do with expanding the meaning and the
substance of democracy itself. Under “casino capitalism,” the goal is to
get a quick return, taking advantage of a kind of logic in which the
only thing that drives us is to put as much money as we can into a slot
machine and hope we walk out with our wallets overflowing.
The following is a complete transcript of Moyers' interview with Giroux:
BILL MOYERS: A very wise teacher once told us, “If you
want to change the world, change the metaphor.” Then he gave us some of
his favorite examples. You think of language differently, he said, if
you think of “words pregnant with celestial fire.” Or “words that weep
and tears that speak.” Of course, the heart doesn’t physically separate
into pieces when we lose someone we love, but “a broken heart” conveys
the depth of loss. And if I say you are the “apple of my eye,” you know
how special you are in my sight. In other words, metaphors cleanse the
lens of perception and give us a fresh take on reality. Recently I read a book and saw a film that opened my eyes to see
differently the crisis of our times, and the metaphor used by both was,
believe it or not, zombies. You heard me right, zombies. More on the
film later, but this is the book:
Zombie Politics and Culture in the Age of Casino Capitalism.
Talk about “connecting the dots.” Read this, and the headlines of the
day will, I think, arrange themselves differently in your head,
threading together ideas and experiences to reveal a pattern. The
skillful weaver is Henry Giroux, a scholar, teacher and social critic
with seemingly tireless energy and a broad range of interests. Here are
just a few of his books:
America's Education Deficit and the War on Youth,
Twilight of the Social,
Youth in a Suspect Society,
Neoliberalism's War on Higher Education.
Henry Giroux is the son of working-class parents in Rhode Island who
now holds the Global TV Network Chair in English and Cultural Studies at
McMaster University in Canada. Henry Giroux, welcome. There's a great urgency in your recent books and in the essays you've
been posting online, a fierce urgency, almost as if you are writing
with the doomsday clock ticking. What accounts for that?
HENRY GIROUX:
Well, for me democracy is too important to allow it to be undermined in
a way in which every vital institution that matters from the political
process to the schools to the inequalities that, to the money being put
into politics, I mean, all those things that make a democracy viable are
in crisis. And the problem is the crisis, while we recognize in
many ways is associated increasingly with the economic system, what we
haven't gotten yet is that it should be accompanied by a crisis of
ideas, that the stories that are being told about democracy are really
about the swindle of fulfillment.
The swindle of fulfillment in
that what the reigning elite in all of their diversity now tell the
American people if not the rest of the world is that democracy is an
excess. It doesn't really matter anymore, that we don't need social
provisions, we don't need the welfare state, that the survival of the
fittest is all that matters, that in fact society should mimic those
values in ways that suggest a new narrative.
You have a
consolidation of power that is so overwhelming, not just in its ability
to control resources and drive the economy and redistribute wealth
upward, but basically to provide the most fraudulent definition of what a
democracy should be.
The notion that profit making is the essence
of democracy, the notion that economics is divorced from ethics, the
notion that the only obligation of citizenship is consumerism, the
notion that the welfare state is a pathology, that any form of
dependency basically is disreputable and needs to be attacked, I mean,
this is a vicious set of assumptions.
BILL MOYERS: Are we close to equating democracy with capitalism?
HENRY GIROUX:
Oh, I mean, I think that's the biggest lie of all actually. The biggest
lie of all is that capitalism is democracy. We have no way of
understanding democracy outside of the market, just as we have no
understanding of how to understand freedom outside of market values.
BILL MOYERS: Explain that. What do you mean "outside of market values"?
HENRY GIROUX: I mean you know, when Margaret Thatcher married Ronald Reagan—
BILL MOYERS: Metaphorically?
HENRY GIROUX:
Metaphorically. Two things happened. One, there was this assumption
that the government was evil except when it regulated its power to
benefit the rich. So it wasn't a matter of smashing the government as
Reagan seemed to suggest, it was a matter of rearranging it and
reconfiguring it so it served the wealthy, the elites and the corporate,
of course, you know, those who run mega corporations. But Thatcher said
something else that's particularly interesting in this discussion. She
said there's no such thing as society. There are only individuals and
families. And so what we begin to see is the emergence of a kind of
ethic, a survival of the fittest ethic that legitimates the most
incredible forms of cruelty, that seems to suggest that freedom in this
discourse of getting rid of society, getting rid of the social— that
discourse is really only about self-interest, that possessive
individualism is now the only virtue that matters. So freedom, which is
essential to any notion of democracy, now becomes nothing more than a
matter of pursuing your own self interests. No society can survive under
those conditions.
BILL MOYERS: So what is
society? When you use it as an antithesis to what Margaret Thatcher
said, what do you have in mind? What's the metaphor for—
HENRY GIROUX:
I have in mind a society in which the wealth is shared, in which there
is a mesh of organizations that are grounded in the social contract,
that takes seriously the mutual obligations that people have to each
other. But more than anything else— I'm sorry, but I want to echo
something that FDR once said.
When he said that, you know, you not
only have to have personal freedoms and political freedoms, the right
to vote the right to speak, you have to have social freedom. You have to
have the freedom from want, the freedom from poverty, the freedom from—
that comes with a lack of health care.
Getting ahead cannot be
the only motive that motivates people. You have to imagine what a good
life is. But agency, the ability to do that, to have the capacity to
basically be able to make decisions and learn how to govern and not just
be governed—
BILL MOYERS: As a citizen.
HENRY GIROUX: As a citizen.
BILL MOYERS: A citizen is a moral agent of—
HENRY GIROUX:
A citizen is a political and moral agent who in fact has a shared sense
of hope and responsibility to others and not just to him or herself.
Under this system, democracy is basically like the lotto. You know, go
in, you put a coin in, and if you're lucky, you win something. If you
don't, then you become something else.
BILL MOYERS:
So then why when I talk about the urgency in your writing, your
forthcoming book opens with this sentence, "America's descending into
madness." Now, don't you think many people will read that as hyperbole?
HENRY GIROUX:
Sometimes in the exaggerations there are great truths. And it seems to
me that what’s unfortunate here is that's not an exaggeration.
BILL MOYERS:
Well, madness can mean several things. It can mean insanity. It can
mean lunacy. But it can also mean folly, foolishness, you know, look at
that craziness over there. Which do you mean?
HENRY GIROUX:
I mean, it's certainly not just about foolishness. It's about a kind of
lunacy in which people lose themselves in a sense of power and greed
and exceptionalism and nationalism in ways that so undercut the meaning
of democracy and the meaning of justice that you have to sit back and
ask yourself how could the following, for instance, take place?
How
could people who allegedly believe in democracy and the American
Congress cut $40 billion from a food stamp program, half of which those
food stamps go to children? And you ask yourself how could that happen? I
mean, how can you say no to a Medicaid program which is far from
radical but at the same time offers poor people health benefits that
could save their lives?
How do you shut down public schools and
say that charter schools and private schools are better because
education is really not a right, it's an entitlement? How do you get a
discourse governing the country that seems to suggest that anything
public, public health, public transportation, public values, you know,
public engagement is a pathology?
BILL MOYERS:
Let me answer that from the other side. They would say to you that we
cut Medicaid or food stamps because they create dependency. We closed
public schools because they aren't working, they aren't teaching. People
are coming out not ready for life.
HENRY GIROUX:
No, no, that's the answer that they give. I mean, and it's a mark of
their insanity. I mean, that's precisely an answer that in my mind
embodies a kind of psychosis that is so divorced— is in such denial
about power and how it works and is in such denial about their attempt
at what I call individualize the social, in other words—
BILL MOYERS: Individualize?
HENRY GIROUX: Individualize the social, which means that all problems, if they exist, rest on the shoulders of individuals.
BILL MOYERS: You are responsible.
HENRY GIROUX: You are responsible.
BILL MOYERS: If you're poor, you're responsible if you're ignorant, you're responsible if—
HENRY GIROUX: Exactly.
BILL MOYERS: —you're sick?
HENRY GIROUX:
That's right, that the government— the larger social order, the society
has no responsibility whatsoever so that— you often hear this, I mean,
if there—I mean, if you have an economic crisis caused by the hedge fund
crooks, you know and millions of people are put out of work and they're
all lining up for unemployment, what do we hear in the national media?
We hear that maybe they don't know how to fill out unemployment forms,
maybe it's about character. You know, maybe they're just simply lazy.
BILL MOYERS: This line struck me: "The ideology of hardness and cruelty runs through American culture like an electric current..."
HENRY GIROUX:
Yeah, it sure does. I mean, to see poor people, their benefits being
cut, to see pensions of Americans who have worked like my father, all
their lives, and taken away, to see the rich just accumulating more and
more wealth.
I mean, it seems to me that there has to be a point
where you have to say, "No, this has to stop." We can't allow ourselves
to be driven by those lies anymore. We can't allow those who are rich,
who are privileged, who are entitled, who accumulate wealth to simply
engage in a flight from social and moral and political responsibility by
blaming the people who are victimized by those policies as the source
of those problems.
BILL MOYERS: There's a new
reality you write emerging in America in no small part because of the
media, one that enshrines a politics of disposability in which growing
numbers of people are considered dispensable and a drain on the body
politic and the economy, not to mention you say an affront on the
sensibilities of the rich and the powerful.
HENRY GIROUX:
If somebody had to say to me, "What exactly is new that we haven't seen
before?" And I think that what we haven't seen before is an attack on
the social contract, Bill, that is so overwhelming, so dangerous in the
way in which its being deconstructed and being disassembled that you now
have as a classic example, you have a whole generation of young people
who are now seen as disposable.
They're in debt, they're
unemployed. My friend, Zygmunt Bauman, calls them the zero generation:
zero jobs, zero hope, zero possibilities, zero employment. And it seems
to me when a country turns its back on its young people because they
figure in investments not long term investments, they can't be treated
as simply commodities that are going to in some way provide an instant
payback and extend the bottom line, they represent something more noble
than that. They represent an indication of how the future is not going
to mimic the present and what obligations people might have, social,
political, moral and otherwise to allow that to happen, and we've
defaulted on that possibility.
BILL MOYERS: You actually call it— there's the title of the book, “America's Education Deficit and the War on Youth.”
HENRY GIROUX: Oh, this is a war. It's a war that endlessly commercializes kids, both as commodities and as commodifiable.
BILL MOYERS: Example?
HENRY GIROUX:
Example being that the young people can't turn anywhere without in some
way being told that the only obligation of citizenship is to shop, is
to be a consumer. You can't walk on a college campus today and walk into
the student union and not see everybody represented there from the
local banks to Disneyland to local shops, all selling things.
I
mean, it's like the school has become a mall. It imitates the mall. And
if you walk into schools as one example, I mean, you look at the buses,
there are advertisements on the buses. You walk into the bathroom, there
are advertisements above the stalls. I mean, and the curriculum is
written by General Electric.
BILL MOYERS: We're all branded—
HENRY GIROUX: They're branded, they're branded.
BILL MOYERS: —everything is branded?
HENRY GIROUX:
Where are the public spaces for young people other learn a discourse
that's not commodified, to be able to think about non-commodifiable
values like trust, justice, honesty, integrity, caring for others,
compassion. Those things, they're just simply absent, they're not part
of those public spheres because those spheres have been commodified.
What
does it mean to go to school all day and just be taking tests and
learning how to teach for the test? Their minds are numb. I mean—the
expression I get from them, they call school dead time, these kids. Say
it's dead time. I call it their dis-imagination zones.
BILL MOYERS: Dis-imagination?
HENRY GIROUX:
Yeah, yeah, they rob— it's a form of learning that robs the mind of any
possibility of being imaginative. The arts are cut out, right, so the
questions are not being raised about what it means to be creative.
All
of those things that speak to educating the imagination, to stretching
it, the giving kids the knowledge, a sense of the traditions, the
archives to take risks, to learn about the world, they're disappearing.
BILL MOYERS:
I heard you respond to someone who asked you at a public session the
other evening: "What would you do about what you've just described?" And
your first response was start debating societies in high schools all
across the country.
HENRY GIROUX: That's right.
One of the things that I learned quickly as a result of the Internet is I
started getting a ton of letters from students who basically were
involved in these debate societies. And they're saying like things, "We
use your work. We love this work.”
And I actually got involved
with one that was working with— out of Brown University's working with a
high school in the inner cities, and I got involved with some of the
students. But then I began to learn as a result of that involvement that
these were the most radical kids in the country.
I mean, these
were kids who embodied what a critical public sphere meant. They were
going all over the country, different high schools, working class kids
no less, debating major issues and getting so excited about in many ways
winning these debates but doing it on the side of— something they could
believe in.
And I thought to myself, "Wow, here's a space."
Here's a space where you're going to have a whole generation of kids who
could be actually engaging in debate and dialogue. Every working class
urban school in this country should put its resources as much as
possible into a debate team.
BILL MOYERS: My
favorite of your many books is this one, “Zombie Politics and Culture in
the Age of Casino Capitalism.” Why that metaphor, zombie politics?
HENRY GIROUX: Because it's a politics that's informed by the machinery of social and civil death.
BILL MOYERS: Death?
HENRY GIROUX:
Death. It's a death machine. It's a death machine because in my
estimation it does everything it can to kill any vestige of a robust
democracy. It turns people into zombies, people who basically are so
caught up with surviving that they have no— they become like the walking
dead, you know, they lose their sense of agency— I mean they lose their
homes, they lose their jobs.
And so this zombie metaphor actually
operated at two levels. I mean, at one level it spoke to people who
have no visions, who exercise a form of political leadership that
extends the politics of what I call war and the machineries of death,
whether those machineries are at home or abroad, whether they're about
the death of civil liberties or they're about making up horrendous lies
to actually invade a country like Iraq.
So this— the zombie
metaphor is a way to sort of suggest that democracy is losing its
oxygen, you know, it's losing its vitality, that we have a politics that
really is about the organization of the production of violence.
It's
losing its soul. It's losing its spirit. It's losing its ability to
speak to itself in ways that would span the human spirit and the human
possibility for justice and equality.
BILL MOYERS: Because we don't think of zombies as having souls?
HENRY GIROUX: They don't have souls.
BILL MOYERS: Right. You—
HENRY GIROUX: They're driven by lust.
BILL MOYERS: By lust?
HENRY GIROUX: The lust for money, the lust for power.
BILL MOYERS:
Well, that's, I guess, why you mix your metaphors. Because you talk
about casino capitalists, zombie politics, which you say in the book
shapes every aspect—
HENRY GIROUX: Every aspect.
BILL MOYERS: —of society.
HENRY GIROUX: Yeah, at the current moment. This is what—
BILL MOYERS: How so?
HENRY GIROUX:
Well, first, let's begin with an assumption. This casino capitalism as
we talk about it, right, one of the things that it does that hasn't been
done before, it doesn't just believe it can control the economy. It
believes that it can govern all of social life. That's different.
That
means it has to have its tentacles into every aspect of everyday life.
Everything from the way schools are run to the way prisons are
outsourced to the way the financial services are run to the way in which
people have access to health care, it's an all-encompassing, it seems
to me, political, cultural, educational apparatus.
And it
basically has nothing to do with expanding the meaning and the substance
of democracy itself. What it has to do is expanding— what it means to
get—a quick return, what it means to take advantage of a kind of casino
logic in which the only thing that drives you is to go to that slot
machine and somehow get more, just pump the machine, put as much money
in as you can into it and walk out a rich man. That's what it's about.
BILL MOYERS:
You say that casino capitalist, zombie politics views competition as a
form of social combat, celebrates war as an extension of politics and
legitimates a ruthless social Darwinism.
HENRY GIROUX:
Oh, I mean, it is truly ruthless. I mean, imagine yourself on a reality
TV program called “The Survivor," you and I, we're all that's left. The
ideology that drives that program is only one of us is going to win. I
don't have any respect for you. I mean, all I'm trying to do is beat
you. I just want to be the one that's left. I want to win the big prize.
And
it seems to me that what's unfortunate is that reality now mimics
reality TV. It is reality TV in terms of the consensus that drives it,
that the shared fears are more important than shared responsibilities,
that the social contract is the pathology because it basically suggests
helping people is a strength rather than a weakness.
It believes
that social bonds not driven by market values are basically bonds that
we should find despicable. But even worse, in this ethic, the market has
colonized pleasure in such a way that violence in many ways seems to be
the only way left that people can actually experience pleasure whether
it's in the popular medium, whether it's in the way in which we
militarize local police to become SWAT teams that actually will break up
poker games now in full gear or give away surplus material, equipment
to a place like Ohio State University, who got an armored tank.
I
mean, I guess— I'm wondering what does it mean when you're on a campus
and you see an armored tank, you know, by the university police? I mean,
this is— everything is a war zone. You know, Senator Graham—when
Lindsey Graham, he said— in talking about the terrorist laws, you know
these horrible laws that are being put into place in which Americans can
be captured, they can be killed and, you know—the kill list all of
this, he basically says, "Everybody's a potential terrorist."
I
mean, so that what happens here is that this notion of fear and this
fear around the notion of security that is simply about protecting
yourself, not about social security, not about protecting the commons,
not about protecting the environment, turns everybody into a potential
enemy. I mean, we cannot mediate our relationships it seems any longer
in this culture in ways in which we would suggest and adhere to the
notion that justice is a matter of caring for the other, that compassion
matters.
BILL MOYERS: So this is why you write that America’s no longer recognizable as a democracy?
HENRY GIROUX:
No. Look, as the social state is crippled, as the social state is in
some way robbed, hollowed out and robbed of its potential and its
capacities, what takes its place? The punishing state takes its place. You
get this notion of incarceration, this, what we call the governing
through crime complex where governance now has been ceded to
corporations who largely are basically about benefiting the rich, the
ultra-rich, the big corporations and allowing the state to exercise its
power in enormously destructive and limited ways.
And those ways
are about militarizing the culture, criminalizing a wide swathe of
social behavior and keeping people in check. What does it mean when you
turn on the television in the United States and you see young kids,
peaceful protestors, lying down with their hands locked and you got a
guy with, you know, spraying them with pepper spray as if there's
something normal about that, as if that's all it takes, that's how we
solve problems? I mean, I guess the question here is what is it in a
culture that would allow the public to believe that with almost any
problem that arises, force is the first way to address it. I mean,
one has to recognize that in that kind of logic, something has happened
in which the state is no longer in the service of democracy.
BILL MOYERS: Well, George Monbiot, who writes for the
Guardian,
wrote just the other day, "It's business that really rules us." And he
says, "So I don't blame people for giving up on politics … When a
state-corporate nexus of power has bypassed democracy and made a mockery
of the voting process, when an unreformed political funding system
ensures that parties can be bought and sold, when politicians of the
main … parties stand and watch as public services are divvied up by a
grubby cabal of privateers, what is left of the system that inspires us
to participate?"
HENRY GIROUX: I mean, the real question is why aren't we more outraged?
HENRY GIROUX: Why aren't we in the streets?
HENRY GIROUX:
I mean, that's the central question for the American public. I mean,
and I think that question has to address something fundamental and that
is what we have, while we have an economic system that in fact has
caused a crisis in democracy. What we haven't addressed is the
underlying consensus that informs that crisis. What you have is
basically a transgression against the very basic ideals of democracy. We
have lost what it means to be connected to democracy.
And I think
that's coupled with a cultural apparatus, a culture, an educative
culture, a mode of politics in which people now have gone through this
for so long that it's become normalized. I mean, it's hard to imagine
life beyond capitalism. You know, it's easier to imagine the death of
the planet than it is to imagine the death of capitalism. I mean— and so
it seems to me—
BILL MOYERS: Well, don't you think people want to be capitalist? Don't you think people want capitalism? They want money?
HENRY GIROUX:
I'm not sure if they want those things. I mean, I think when you read
all the surveys about what's important to people's lives, Bill, actually
the things that they focus on are not about, you know, "I want to be
about the Kardashian sisters." God forbid, right?
I mean, I think
that what—they the same way we want—we need a decent education for our
kids, we want, you know, real healthcare. I mean, we want the sense of
equality in the country. We want to be able to control the political
process so that we're not simply nameless and invisible and disposable.
I
mean, they want women to be able to have the right to have some control
over their own reproductive rights. I mean, they're talking about gay
rights being a legitimate pursuit of justice.
And I think that
what is missing from all of this are the basic, are those alternative
public spheres, those cultural formations, what I call a formative
culture that can bring people together and give those ideas, embody them
in both a sense of hope, of vision and the organizations and strategies
that would be necessary at the very least to start a third party, at
the very least. I mean, to start a party that is not part of this
establishment, to reconstruct a sense of where politics can go.
BILL MOYERS:
Well, you write that the liberal center has failed us and for all of
its discourse of helping the poor, of addressing inequality, it always
ends up on the side of bankers and finance capital, right.
HENRY GIROUX: Are you talking about Obama?
BILL MOYERS: I'm talking about what you say.
HENRY GIROUX: I know, I know. I'm—
BILL MOYERS:
But you do, I must be fair and say that you go on in that same chapter
of one of these books to say isn't it time we forget trying to pressure
Obama to do the right thing?
HENRY GIROUX: Obama
to me is symptomatic to me of the liberal center. But the issue is much
greater than him. I mean, the issue is in a system that is entirely
broken. It's broken.
Elections are bought by big money. The
political process is not in the hands of the people. It's in the hands
of very few people. And it seems to me we have to ask ourselves what
kind of formative culture needs to be put in place in which education
becomes central to politics, in which politics can be used to help
people to be able to see things differently, to get beyond this system
that is so closed, so powerfully normalized.
I mean, the right
since the 1970s has created a massive cultural apparatus, a slew of
anti-public intellectuals. They've invaded the universities with think
tanks. They have foundations. They have all kinds of money. And you
know, it's interesting, the war they wage is a war on the mind.
The
war on what it means to be able to dissent, the war on the possibility
of alternative visions. And the left really has— and progressives and
liberals, we have nothing like that. I mean, we always seem to believe
that all you have to do is tell the truth.
BILL MOYERS: You shall know the truth, the truth will set you free.
HENRY GIROUX: Yeah, and the truth will set you free. But I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way.
BILL MOYERS: Which brings me to the book you're now finishing and will be published next spring. You call it
The Violence of Organized Forgetting. What are we forgetting?
HENRY GIROUX:
We're forgetting the past. We're forgetting all those struggles that in
fact offered a different story about the United States.
BILL MOYERS: How is it organized, this forgetting?
HENRY GIROUX:
It's organized because it's systemic. It's organized because you have
people controlling schools who are deleting those histories and making
sure that they don't appear. In Tucson, Arizona, they banished ethnic
studies from the curriculum. This is the dis-imagination machine. That's
the hardcore element.
BILL MOYERS: The suffocation of imagination?
HENRY GIROUX:
The suffocation of imagination. And we kill the imagination by
suggesting that the only kind of rationality that matters, the only kind
of learning that matters is utterly instrumental, pragmatist.
So
what we do is we collapse education into training, and we end up
suggesting that not knowing much is somehow a virtue. And I'll and I
think what's so disturbing about this is not only do you see it in the
popular culture with the lowest common denominator now drives that
culture, but you also see it coming from politicians who actually say
things that suggest something about the policies they'd like to
implement.
I mean, I know Rick Santorum is not— is kind of a, you
know, an obvious figure. But when he stands up in front of a body of
Republicans and he says, the last thing we need in the Republican party
are intellectuals. And I think it's kind of a template for the sort of
idiocy that increasingly now dominates our culture.
BILL MOYERS:
What is an intellectual, by the way? The atmosphere has been so
poisoned, as you know, by what you've been describing, that many people
bridle when they hear the term intellectual pursuit.
HENRY GIROUX:
I mean, yeah, I think intellectuals are— there are two ways we can
describe intellectuals. In the most general sense, we can say,
"Intellectuals are people who take pride in ideas. They work with
ideas." I mean, they believe that ideas matter. They believe that
there's no such thing as common sense, good sense or bad sense, but
reflective sense.
That ideas offer the framework for gives us
agency, what allows us to read the world critically, what allows us to
be literate. What allows us to be civic literacy may be in some ways the
high point of what it means to be an intellectual—
BILL MOYERS: Because?
HENRY GIROUX:
Because it suggests that how we learn what we learn and what we do with
the knowledge that we have is not just for ourselves. It's for the way
in which we can expand and deepen the very processes of democracy in
general, and address those problems and anti-democratic forces that work
against it. Now some people make a living as a result of being
intellectuals. But there are people who are intellectuals who don't
function in that capacity. They're truck drivers. They're workers.
I
grew up in a working-class neighborhood. The smartest people I have
ever met were in that neighborhood. We read books. We went to the
library together. We drank on Friday nights. We talked about [Antonio]
Gramsci. We drove to Boston—
BILL MOYERS: Gramsci being the Italian philosopher.
HENRY GIROUX: The Italian philosopher. I mean—
BILL MOYERS: The pessimism of the—
HENRY GIROUX: Of the intellect, and optimism of the will.
BILL MOYERS: Right.
HENRY GIROUX: Right? I mean, we—
BILL MOYERS: You see the world as it is, but then you act as if you can change the world.
HENRY GIROUX:
Exactly. I mean, we tried to find ways to both enliven the
neighborhoods we lived in. But at the same time, we knew that that
wasn't enough. That one— that there was a world beyond our neighborhood,
and that world had all kinds of things for us to learn. And we were
excited about that. I mean, we drank, danced and talked. That's what we
did.
BILL MOYERS: And I assume there were some other more private activities.
HENRY GIROUX: And there was more private activity.
BILL MOYERS:
You know, you are a buoyant man. And yet you describe what you call a
shift away from the hope that accompanies the living, to a politics of
cynicism and despair.
HENRY GIROUX: Yeah.
BILL MOYERS: What leads you to this?
HENRY GIROUX:
What leads me to this is something that we mentioned earlier, and that
is when you see policies being enacted today that are so cruel and so
savage, wiping out a generation of young people, trying to eliminate
public schools, eliminating health care, putting endless percentage of
black and brown people in jail, destroying the environment and there's
no public outrage.
There aren't people in the streets. You know,
you have to ask yourself, "Has this market mentality, is it so powerful
and that it's become so normalized, so taken for granted that the
imagination, the collective imagination has been so stunted that it
becomes difficult to challenge it anymore?" And I think that leads me to
despair somewhat. But I've always felt that in the face of the worst
tyrannies, people resist.
They're resisting now all over the
world. And it seems to me history is open. I believe history is open. I
don't believe that we have reached the finality of a system that is so
destructive that all we have to do is look at the clock and say, "One
minute left." I don't believe in those kinds of metaphors.
We have
to acknowledge the realities that bear down on us, but it seems to me
that if we really want to live in a world and be alive with compassion
and justice, then we need educated hope. We need a hope that recognizes
the problems and doesn't romanticize them, and also recognizes the need
for vision, for social organizations, for strategies. We need
institutions that provide the formative culture that give voice to those
visions and those ideas.
BILL MOYERS: You've
talked elsewhere or written elsewhere about the need for a militant,
far-reaching, social movement to challenge the false claims that equate
democracy and capitalism. Now, what do you mean "militant and
far-reaching social movement"?
HENRY GIROUX: I
mean, what we do know, we know this. We know that there are people
working in local communities all over the United States around
particular kinds of issues, whether it be gay rights, whether it be the
environment, whether it be, you know the Occupy movement, helping people
with Hurricane Sandy. We have a lot of fragmented movements.
And I
think we probably have a lot more than we realize, because the press
gives them no visibility, as you know. So, we don't really have a sense
of the degree to which these— how pronounced these really are. I think
the real issue here is, you know, what would it mean to begin to do at
least two things?
To say the very least, one is to develop
cultural apparatuses that can offer a new vocabulary for people, where
questions of freedom and justice and the problems that we're facing can
be analyzed in ways that reach mass audiences in accessible language. We
have to build a formative culture. We have to do that. Secondly, we've
got to overcome the fractured nature of these movements. I mean the
thing that plagues me about progressives in the left and liberals is
they are all sort of ensconced in these fragmented movements that seem
to suggest those movements constitute the totality of the system of
oppression that we are facing. And they don’t. Look, we have
technologies in place now in which students all over the world are
beginning to communicate with each other because they're realizing that
the punishing logic of austerity has a certain kind of semblance that a
certain normality that, in common ground, that is affecting students in
Greece, students in Spain, students in France.
BILL MOYERS: And in this country?
HENRY GIROUX:
And in this country. And it seems to me that while I may be too old to
in any way begin to participate in this, I really believe that young
people have recognized that they've been written out of the discourse of
democracy. That they're in the grip of something so oppressive it will
take away their future, their hopes, their possibilities and their sense
of the future will be one that is less than what their parents had
imagined.
And there's no going back. I mean, this has to be
addressed. And it'll take time. They'll build the organizations. They'll
get— they'll work with the new technologies. And hopefully they'll have
our generation to be able to assist in that, but it's not going to
happen tomorrow. And it's not going to happen in a year. It's going to
as you have to plant seeds. You have to believe that seeds matter.
But
you need a different vocabulary and a different understanding of
politics. Look, the right has one thing going for it that nobody wants
to talk about. Power is global. And politics is local. They float. They
have no allegiance to anyone. They don't care about the social contract,
because if workers in the United States don't want to compromise,
they'll get them in Mexico. So the notion of political concessions has
died for this class. They don't care about it anymore. There are no
political concessions.
BILL MOYERS: The financial class.
HENRY GIROUX: The financial class.
BILL MOYERS: The one percent.
HENRY GIROUX:
The one percent. That's why they're so savage. They're so savage
because there's nothing to give up. They don't have to compromise. The
power is so arrogant, so over the top, so unlike anything we have seen
in terms of its anti-democratic practices, policies, modes of governance
and ideology. That at some point, you know they feel they don't
have to legitimate this anymore. I mean, it's because the contradictions
are becoming so great, that I think all of a sudden a lot of young
people are recognizing this language, this whole language, doesn't work.
The language of liberalism doesn't work anymore.
No, let's just
reform the system. Let's work within it. Let's just run people for
office. My argument would be, you have one foot in and you have one foot
out. I'm not willing to give up the school board. I'm not willing to
give up all forms of electoral politics. But it seems to me at the local
level we can do some of that thing, that people can get elected. They
can make moderate changes.
But the real changes are not going to
come there. The real changes are going to come in creating movements
that are longstanding, that are organized, that basically take questions
of governance and policy seriously and begin to spread out and become
international. That is going to have to happen.
BILL MOYERS:
But here's the contradiction I hear in what you're saying. That if you
write about a turning toward despair and cynicism in politics. Can you
get movements out of despair and cynicism? Can you get people who will
take on the system when they have been told that the system is so
powerful and so overwhelming that they've lost their, as you call it,
moral and political agency?
HENRY GIROUX: Well,
let me put it this way. What we often find is we often find people who
take for granted the systems that they live in. They take for granted
the savagery— the sort of things that you talked about. And it produces
two kinds of rage. It produces an inner rage in which people blame
themselves.
It’s so disturbing to me to see working-class,
middle-class people blaming themselves when these bankers have actually
caused the crisis. That's the first issue.
Then you have another
expression of that rage, and that rage blames blacks. It blames
immigrants. It blames young people. It says, "They're not—" it says
about youth, it says, "Youth is not in trouble. They're the problem."
And
so, all of a sudden that rage gets displaced. The question is not what
do we— the question is not just where's the outrage. The question is how
do you mobilize the rage in ways in which it's not self-defeating, and
in ways in which it doesn't basically be used to scapegoat other people.
That's an educational issue. That should be at the center of any
politics that matters.
BILL MOYERS: One of your
intellectual mentors, the philosopher Ernst Bloch, said, "We must
believe in the principle of hope." And you've written often about the
language of hope. What does that mean, the principle of hope and the
language of hope, and why are they important as you see it in creating
this new paradigm, metaphor that you talk about?
HENRY GIROUX:
Hope to me is a metaphor that speaks to the power of the imagination. I
don't believe that anyone should be involved in politics in a
progressive way if they can't understand that to act otherwise, you have
to imagine otherwise.
What hope is predicated on is the
assumption that life can be different than it is now. But to be
different than it is now, rather than romanticizing hope and turning it
into something Disney-like, right, it really has to involve the hard
work of A) recognizing the structures of domination that we have to
face; B) organizing collectively and somehow to change those; and C)
believing it can be done, that it's worth the struggle.
That if
the struggles are not believed in, if people don't have the faith to
engage in these struggles, and that's the issue. I mean, that working
class neighborhood that I talked to you about in the beginning of the
program, I mean, it just resonates with such a sense of joy for me, the
sense of solidarity, sociality. And I think all the institutions
that are being constructed under this market tyranny, this casino
capitals is just the opposite. It's like that image of all these people
at the bus stop, right. And they're all— they're together, but they're
alone. They're alone.
BILL MOYERS: If we have
zombied politics, if we have as you say, metaphorically, zombies in the
high levels of government, zombies in banks and financial centers and
zombies in the military, can't you have a zombie population? I mean, you
say the stories that are being told through the commercial corporate
entertainment media are all the more powerful because they seem to defy
the public's desire for rigorous accountability, critical interrogation
and openness. Now if that's what the public wants, why isn't the
market providing them? Isn't that what the market's supposed to do?
Provide what people want?
HENRY GIROUX: The
market doesn't want that at all. I mean, the market wants the people,
the apostles of this market logic, I mean, they actually the first rule
of the market is make sure you have power that’s unaccountable. That's
what they want. And I think that, I mean, what we see for the
first time in history is a war on the ability to produce meanings that
hold power accountable. A war on the possibility of an education that
enables people to think critically, a war on cultural apparatuses that
entertain by simply engaging in this spectacle of violence and not
producing programs that really are controversial, that make people
think, that make people alive through the possibilities of, you know,
the imagination itself. I mean, my argument is the formative
culture that produces those kinds of intellectual and creative and
imaginative abilities has been under assault since the 1980s in a very
systemic way. So that the formative culture that takes its place is a
business culture. It's a culture run by accountants, not by visionaries.
It's a culture run by the financial services. It's a culture run by
people who believe that data is more important than knowledge.
BILL MOYERS: You paint a very grim picture of the state of democracy, and yet you don't seem contaminated by cynicism yourself.
HENRY GIROUX: No, I'm not.
BILL MOYERS: How do we understand that?
HENRY GIROUX: Because I refuse to become a part of it.
Become
I refuse to become complicitous. I refuse to say—I refuse to be alive
and to watch institutions being handed over to right-wing zealots. I
refuse to be alive and watch the planet be destroyed. I mean, when
you mentioned— you talk about the collective imagination, you know, I
mean that imagination emerges when people find strength in collective
organizations, when they find strength in each other. Believing
that we can work together to produce commons in which we can share that
raises everybody up and not just some people, that contributes to the
world in a way that— and I really don't mean to be romanticizing here,
but a world that is we recognize is never just enough. Justice is never
done. It's an endless struggle. And that there's joy in that struggle,
because there's a sense of solidarity that brings us together around the
most basic, most elemental and the most important of democratic values.
BILL MOYERS: Henry Giroux, thank you, very much for talking to me.
HENRY GIROUX: Thank you, Bill.